Instead of stepping away from the classroom, Oscar chose to stay. And from that place of relational credibility and everyday presence, a church began to form—not around a platform, but around shared life, conversations and a slow, steady rhythm of discipleship.

Oscar represents a growing wave of covocational church planters and pastors—men and women who choose to remain in their marketplace roles while planting and sustaining faith communities. In a time when financial resources are limited and relational connections are hard to come by, a covocational strategy is a compelling option. It provides planters and pastors with a longer runway to engage their community, make disciples, and plant and grow a church without the pressure to fund a full-time salary. But covocational ministry is more than a financial strategy; it is a return to the roots of mission—ordinary people living ordinary lives with gospel intentionality, where God has already sent them.

Unlike a traditional church model, where leaders are either fully funded from the church or juggle side hustles out of necessity (what is often called “bivocational”), covocational leaders view their profession as a primary context for mission. Rather than compartmentalizing work and ministry, they integrate the two, seeing their workplace as an extension of the church’s presence in the community.

Let’s look more closely at why more church planters and pastors are choosing to be covocational. 

1. Relational Connections

Here’s the reality: The majority of pastors spend most of their time with church people. That’s not a bad thing—it’s just the nature of being a pastor. But if the goal is to reach people who are not Christians, living in a church bubble is a problem.

By working in the marketplace, a covocational planter or pastor naturally engages with co-workers, clients and residents—people who may never step foot inside a church building. Their vocation becomes a built-in mission field, providing daily interactions with individuals from diverse backgrounds, belief systems and life experiences. A covocational minister sees their workplace as a space where discipleship, evangelism and kingdom influence happen organically. Instead of viewing their marketplace job as a hindrance to ministry, they recognize it as a God-ordained advantage—an opportunity to incarnate and proclaim the gospel in the rhythms of everyday life.

2. Credibility

In a time when the term “pastor” doesn’t always receive the warmest reception, it makes a difference when people see that you work a job just like they do. It builds trust—especially with those outside the church who might be skeptical of religion or organized faith. It shows that you’re not removed from the pressures and complexities of everyday life.

But it’s not just about how outsiders see you. When a pastor works in the real world, the people inside the church notice too. They see that you understand what their Monday-to-Friday looks like. That shared experience can help to break down the “clergy-laity” divide and remind everyone that all work matters. It reinforces the idea that faith isn’t just for Sundays—it’s meant to shape our whole lives, including the workplace. People trust leaders who live in the same world they do.

3. Financial Stewardship

Planting a church or shepherding a small church is hard enough without the added pressure of finances. A stable income from outside the church allows planters to provide for their families without the stress of fluctuating giving patterns. Additionally, many full-time jobs offer essential benefits such as health insurance, paid vacation and retirement plans—provisions that new or small churches often cannot afford to provide.

And for the church itself, not having to fund a full-time salary frees up resources to invest in mission and ministry. You can take time building relationships instead of rushing to grow numbers to support the church budget.

Further, covocational strategies allow denominations and church planting networks to support more planters in more places—especially in expensive and underserved areas where traditional funding models just don’t work. If we want to see a church planting movement in every place and people group, we must engage with covocational leaders.

4. Shared Leadership

When a pastor can’t do everything (because, you know, they have a job), something important happens: People step up.

Covocational ministry creates space for others to lead, serve and grow. They have to. And that’s a good thing. Instead of a “come and watch the pastor do ministry” model, covocational-led churches become communities of participation. People discover their gifts. Leadership is shared. Ownership grows. And the whole church becomes stronger and more fruitful because it’s not built around one person.

This shift also reawakens a powerful and often underutilized truth: the priesthood of all believers. Every follower of Jesus is called, gifted and empowered to be a minister in their own right—not just the person with a title or a microphone. Covocational churches lean into this by necessity, but in doing so, they recover a deeper theological reality: The church is healthiest when everyone plays a role in the mission.

5. Freedom to Speak Prophetically

Sometimes speaking the truth comes with a cost. In a traditional model, where your salary may depend on keeping everyone happy, that can get complicated. But when a pastor’s support comes from the marketplace, they often feel more freedom to speak boldly—whether it’s challenging injustice, calling the church to repentance, or speaking hard truths. When pastors are free to speak with honesty and conviction, the church is in a better position to become a place of real transformation.

6. Personal Growth

Many covocational leaders say their day jobs make them better pastors. Why? Because they’re constantly learning how to manage time, work with people, solve problems, adapt to change, and communicate clearly. These marketplace skills can translate into ministry in meaningful ways. Rather than being a diversion from their ministry calling, the workplace becomes a training ground that shapes them into more well-rounded leaders.

The Greatest Challenge

Now let’s be real. Covocational ministry isn’t easy. Balancing a full-time job and the demands of church leadership takes serious intentionality. It requires boundaries, support systems and a clear sense of calling. And if there’s one challenge that rises above the rest, it’s time. There never seems to be enough of it.

But the good news is that you’re not powerless. Here are five simple yet powerful ways you can take control of your time: calendar, priorities, distractions, margin and team. They won’t magically add hours to your day, but they will help you make the most of the ones you have.

Calendar

A calendar can be a powerful tool to effectively manage time; however, for that to work, you must be the one to manage it. Take a serious look at your calendar to examine what an average week looks like.

In the book Time Traps, Todd Duncan argues for a time budget, which is like a financial budget, except instead of tracking dollars, you track hours. Where’s your time really going? What’s getting crowded out? What’s causing stress?

Perhaps before saying yes to the next meeting request, examine your calendar and determine if it is a good fit for that time and day. And remember, you don’t have to say yes to everything. Saying no is not just a good idea—it has now become a mathematical necessity. If there are 15 good things to do today and you only have time to do 10 of them, you will need to say no five times. As author Anne Lamott says, “No is a complete sentence.” So instead of letting your schedule boss you around, start using it as a boundary-setting tool. 

Priorities

Here’s something we often forget: You can’t prioritize everything. That’s why setting clear priorities is key. And when you’re covocational, it’s even more important to decide ahead of time what deserves your best time and energy.

So where do you start? Try this: Put your family and your health—physical, emotional and spiritual—at the top of the list. Block out time on your calendar for rest, relationships and renewal like you would any other appointment. And when someone asks if you’re free, you can tell them you already have a prior commitment.

Remember, if your health collapses or your family falls apart, it doesn’t matter how successful your ministry is. 

Distractions

We all know the feeling: You pick up your phone to check one quick thing and before you know it, 30 minutes have vanished. You’re watching cute panda videos, or you are knee-deep in an argument with a total stranger on social media. It’s not just you. We’re all living in a digital world designed to keep us scrolling, clicking and consuming.

Distractions are everywhere. They come dressed as notifications, endless reels, breaking news or even “urgent” work emails that could’ve easily waited. While we can’t eliminate every distraction, we can create a few healthy boundaries to keep us focused and protect our time. Here are a few small, intentional changes to help you reclaim chunks of your day, and over time, your clarity and productivity.

• Turn off nonessential notifications. If your phone lights up every time someone posts a story or likes a photo, you’re inviting constant interruptions. Silence the noise.

• Take regular breaks from social media. Even a 24-hour detox can reset your focus. Make space for what is happening right in front of you.

• Unfollow or mute accounts that stir up stress or drama. Your feed should nourish you, not drain you.

• Be mindful of the content you consume, especially when you’re already tired. When your brain is fatigued it’s more vulnerable to mindless scrolling and emotional triggers.

Margin

When it comes to juggling work, family and ministry, one of the most important things we can do is create space. In his book Margin, Richard Swenson gives us a picture that really sticks. He asks: How crazy would it be if a book had no margins? Imagine every page crammed edge to edge with words—no white space at all. It would be overwhelming, hard to read, and just plain chaotic. Sound familiar?

Swenson says margin is the space between our load and our limits, between thriving and burning out. It’s the opposite of overload. And that space? It’s where rest, healing, wisdom and strong relationships can grow.

Think about it: We don’t tailgate someone two inches from their bumper on the highway. Instead, we make sure there is space in case something goes wrong. We don’t book flights with a two-minute layover in a large airport. We don’t load a boat until it’s almost underwater. So why do we live our lives without breathing room?

This metaphor is a helpful way to talk about time, especially when we’re trying to balance the demands of church, work and family. It gives us a common language we can use when we look at our schedules or check in with each other. We can ask: Do I have margin? Where am I overloaded?

But margin doesn’t just happen. You must plan for it. In fact, in a culture that applauds ambition and perpetual activity, we will have to fight for it. 

Team

If you’re covocational and trying to run everything solo, burnout isn’t a possibility, it’s a guarantee. That’s why team matters. A lot. Build a team of leaders with different strengths. If you’re a shepherd at heart, bring in someone with apostolic or evangelistic gifts. If you love teaching, find a partner who’s great at gathering or organizing.

When you lead with others, it multiplies ministry and models the kind of church culture where everyone gets to contribute. By understanding your own strengths and intentionally building a team, you can foster a church culture where ministry is shared, mission is advanced, and people are equipped to serve in their sweet spot. Building a team not only creates sustainability, but it also reflects the diverse ways God has designed the church to flourish.

Everyday Impact

Covocational ministry isn’t just about balancing a budget. It’s about embracing a whole new way of being on mission. When you work in the marketplace and lead in the church, you begin to blur the lines between the sacred and the secular. You show people that faith doesn’t just live in Sunday services—it shows up in office breakrooms, construction sites, classrooms and board meetings. Sure, it’s challenging. And yes, it takes intentional effort. But it’s also one of the most meaningful, creative and integrated ways to live out your calling.

For more on co-vocational church planting go to CovoChurchPlanting.com.

12 Potential Covocational Callings

A covocational pastor balances the dual role of leading a church while maintaining a career outside of traditional ministry. The right marketplace vocation for a covocational leader should allow flexibility; align with the leader’s skills; and if they’re planting a church, it should complement their church-planting strategy. Here are several vocations that could be a good fit.

Teaching/Education

Teaching roles often offer flexible schedules, extended breaks and the opportunity to invest in people’s lives. Being a teacher allows for intentional relationships and can serve as a platform for mentoring, community building and leadership development.

Entrepreneur/Small Business Owner

Owning a business provides flexibility with work hours and the ability to connect with the community. Entrepreneurs also often have a greater level of influence in their community, and can integrate faith principles into the marketplace.

Consulting

Consulting offers flexibility and can provide an opportunity to work part-time or on a project-by-project basis. Consulting roles often involve leadership development and strategic thinking, which can benefit church planting efforts.

Real Estate

Real estate agents often have flexible schedules. Additionally, real estate offers opportunities to network with people in the community and build relationships.

Freelancing (Writing, Graphic Design, Marketing, Web Development)

Freelancers can control their own schedules. These roles can often be done remotely, allowing for mobility and flexibility in managing multiple commitments.

Health Care (Nursing, Therapy)

Health care roles, such as nursing, physical therapy or counseling often offer shift-based work, which can create flexibility. Additionally, health care vocations are people-centered, offering many opportunities to demonstrate care, build relationships and show God’s love in practical ways.

Social Work/Nonprofit

Working in a nonprofit or social work capacity allows individuals to be deeply involved in the needs of the community. This can align well with the mission focus of church planting.

Trades (Carpentry, Electrician, Plumber)

Skilled trades often offer flexibility with self-employment or project-based work. These professions also create regular interactions with different people in the community, opening doors for relationship building and outreach.

Technology (Software Developer, IT Specialist, Cybersecurity)

Many technology roles allow for remote work or flexible schedules. The tech industry also offers potential for significant income.

Sales

Sales roles, particularly those that offer commission-based income, often come with a degree of schedule control and flexibility. Salespeople are also in regular contact with the public, providing opportunities for engagement and relationship building.

Financial Planning/Advising

Financial advisors often work flexible hours and build long-term relationships with clients, which can provide opportunities to engage in deeper conversations about life and values. This vocation also allows the church leader to manage their time effectively while helping individuals and families with their financial futures.

Hospitality Industry (Restaurant Owner, Coffee Shop Manager)

Owning or managing a business in the hospitality sector, such as a coffee shop, provides many opportunities for community engagement and relationship building. These businesses can also serve as gathering spaces for church-related events or small group meetings, creating a natural overlap between vocation and ministry.

From the Editor | Ed Stetzer

The resurgence of church attendance by young people—particularly young men—is making headlines around the world. From the “Quiet Revival” reported on in the U.K. to a story in the New York Times on Easter Sunday, the news is spreading. For many of us, this has been something we have been working toward for a long time. 

Reports of Renewal

The most remarkable finding from a Bible Society report in partnership with YouGov shows a strong shift in church attendance among members of Gen Z, quadrupling from 4% to 16% between 2018 and 2024. There has been a particular rise in Gen Z men, growing more than fivefold from 4% to 21%, while attendance of women in Gen Z grew fourfold from 3% to 12%. Across age demographics over 2 million more people attend church in the U.K. than six years ago.

In an article I wrote for USA Today I noted several encouraging trends:

* The Wall Street Journal reports a surge in Bible sales, especially among first-time buyers, while the American Bible Society notes an increase in Bible use and engagement.

* Barna reports a growing interest in learning more about Jesus among Gen Z teens.

* Ryan Burge notes the dramatic rise of the “nones” seems to be leveling off after a 30-year trend. 

* Faith-based series and movies including The Chosen and King of Kings make up a growing share of the entertainment market.

We also see reports in the U.S. like Unite US, where college students are gathering for services on campuses. Beginning with 5,000 students at Auburn University in September 2023, campuses from Florida State to Ohio State and more report thousands in attendance and hundreds of baptisms. 

Barna reports a rise in spiritual hunger across generations that is most pronounced in Gen Z: Fifty-nine percent of Gen Zers say they are more open to God today than before the pandemic.

While we rejoice at the encouraging news, we also remember that this resurgence of attendance is actually just a return to where we were perhaps a few years to two decades ago. In the U.S., self-reported church attendance has declined from about 42% actively attending to 30% from 2000–2003 to 2021–2023 according to Gallup. There is yet much more to be done, but we pray the trends continue.

It is worth leaning into a few of these trends, particularly the renewed engagement of young men in church.

Beneath the Numbers

More young men attending church is a cause to rejoice. Ryan Burge notes that there has been a significant trend upward among younger men attending church weekly and a downturn of those who never attend church. The trend is also seen in women but at a lessening rate, and more young women have been dropping out.

When I speak on these issues as I’ve been traveling and doing the Lead the Way Tour (Biola.edu/leadtheway) this year, I’m struck by the fact that people are enthusiastic about this news and applaud the interest in young men. But there are a couple caveats worth considering.

First, there is a crisis among young men in our country that is substantial and deepening. In times of crisis people look toward other ways of living and thinking. It is abundantly clear that young men are searching today. I wish I could tell you that all young men represented by the resurgence I have noted are turning to church. But we also have to acknowledge that young men are being drawn to other people and ideas. This includes the likes of Andrew Tate, who represents the worst of toxic masculinity. 

Others are being discipled by Joe Rogan—though I wouldn’t put Joe Rogan in the same category as Tate. We can add to that the Jordan Peterson phenomenon. Vox calls Peterson “a lifestyle guru for men and boys who feel displaced” in today’s world. In fact, David Brooks at the New York Times calls Peterson the “most influential public intellectual in the Western world right now,” comparing him to the preeminent 20th-century conservative writer and thinker William F. Buckley Jr. 

Personally, I’m far more interested in young men being discipled in Christ-centered churches by older godly men. I want to see young men being changed by the power of the gospel. We are seeing today a generation realizing that the modern world has failed to deliver on its promises. Their existential questions are not being answered with clarity by the subjectivistic and individualistic moral tone of our time. Searching, apprehensive young men experience loss in their quest for meaning. It’s no wonder many are drawn to a confident, steady voice like Peterson. We must seize this moment to show them the spiritual hope found in Christ.

The second caveat is that for the first time in recent history we see more Gen Z men than women attending church. Twenty-one percent of Gen Z young men compared to 12% of women attend in the U.K. Across the world, recent research shows a widening ideological gap between men and women globally. (I was in Korea twice last year, and this is part of the crisis there, impacting birthrates and demographics.)

In the United States, young women are not going to church at the same level as young men. We don’t yet have enough data to ascertain with full confidence why this is the case, but statistically we do know that there is a correlation between the ideology of young men and young women and their church attendance. Young men are trending more toward conservatism across the globe, while young women are simultaneously trending more progressive.

Now, here’s where people tend to get mad at me, but it’s a statistical fact that the more progressive you are, the less likely you are to go to church. I know this bothers some, and I would clarify that this does not mean all people who are progressive are irreligious, but there is clearly a connection between the two. 

Additionally, due to the church’s conviction about the authority of the Bible, it has historically been more conservative on issues pertinent to some young women today, such as sexuality and gender. The gender gap is most significantly on LGBTQ+ issues, where 31% of Gen Z women identify as LGBTQ+ (most frequently bisexual) compared to 12% of Gen Z men. Access to abortion also ranks high on young women’s concerns. Therefore, we ought not be surprised at the trends as young men become more conservative and young women become more progressive—and it impacts church engagement as well.

A Way Forward

So, how do we respond to the opportunity seen in young men and the challenge revealed by young women?

1. We consistently present a vision of what gospel-centered men and women look like.

With young men this means we avoid two extremes: turning to the trap of some of the craziest ideas of hypermasculinity over the last 20 years in some churches on one hand, or affirming the passivity and indecisiveness that marks (and frustrates) too many young men who are confused about what it means to be a man today. We’ve all seen the trail of destruction that such approaches left behind. We need to call young men to something more: to stand firm with conviction on the gospel while also displaying humility and gentleness. Put simply, we need to show men how to be like Jesus. 

2. We need to be sure women are seen and see other women in church who are making a difference for the gospel.

Church should never be a place where young women feel unwelcome, unheard and unnoticed. Representatives from different theological perspectives all can acknowledge that the voices and leadership of women are important in the life of the church. We can welcome the questions of young women and provide answers that are full of grace and truth. Young women should feel seen at church, and see other women in leadership. 

3. We can interact with all young adults with an understanding that the world has changed dramatically.

We must show how the unchanging gospel impacts our changing times. In The Great Dechurching, Jim Davis, Michael Graham and Ryan Burge note that one-third of younger adults today had no religious training or example in their homes. As such, we have to take a step back as we teach God’s Word, building upon the grand narrative of redemption to show how every issue dealt with in the story of God is centered in Christ. Short, pithy responses are not what this generation seeks. Let’s give them truth with grace, clarity and depth.

The Great Opportunity

Jonathan Edwards observed that the Great Awakening was primarily led and impacted by younger people. We are seeing encouraging signs today. This is a real moment for the church. It’s a moment that many of us have been praying for. Let’s engage this moment, but let’s not start announcing a revival. It’s not that. It’s an opening, an opportunity. And, as the people of God, we can (and must) say, “Here I am Lord, send me” (Isa. 6:8).

Read more from Ed Stetzer »

Discern the Times | Amy Orr-Ewing

Something is happening in the church, and it’s making the news. 

In post-Christian Great Britain where I live, we have been working hard to proclaim the gospel and make the case for the Christian faith, and something extraordinary is happening: People are waking up to their need for God. They are buying Bibles in such great numbers that it is making the news. There is a renaissance in belief in God. 

According to research from the Bible Society, church attendance has seen a dramatic increase, particularly among young men in the United Kingdom. In 2014, only 4% of male respondents ages 18–24 said they attended church. Today, this number among that same segment has risen to 21%. What the Bible Society is calling “The Quiet Revival” is something I am seeing in my own travels. Young people, and notably young men, are discovering the Christian faith and coming to church. 

In the 2010s, atheism, and in particular New Atheism, was on the rise, but that tide has now turned. Take Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of the New York Times bestseller Infidel, for example. She came to Europe as a young teen, escaping extremism and poverty in Somalia. As she grew up, she was persuaded that there is no God, and she emerged as a spokesperson for atheism. She rejected all faith and shared the stage with Richard Dawkins and other prominent atheists to speak about the nonexistence of God. 

In the last couple of years, however, Hirsi Ali has come to faith in Jesus Christ and been baptized. She has been speaking publicly about this transformation, so Dawkins wanted to interview her. He confessed that he had hoped that she was interested in Christianity for what it might offer politically, structurally, culturally and morally, but he did not anticipate her having encountered a powerful living God. 

Here is a little bit from their interview:

Dawkins: “I’ve called you a political Christian, but from what you’ve just said, it sounds like you are more than just a political Christian. It sounds as though you actually believe it. … You surely do not believe in the resurrection?” 

Hirsi Ali: “I choose to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. That is a matter of choice. It’s a matter of going back to: Is there something or is there nothing? I think you start with there is nothing, and yes, for years I agreed with you that there is nothing. But if you come round to the idea that there might be something much more powerful than we are, something that caused everything else, then something like Jesus rising out of the dead and these other miracles—Jesus being born of a virgin—for that higher power it is not a big deal.”  

Dawkins: “I came here to persuade you, Ayaan, that you’re not a Christian. But I think you are a Christian.” 

Public intellectuals are finding the Christian faith. Gen Z is coming back to church. God is on the move. But are we ready? 

We must “always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you for the reason for the hope within” (1 Peter 3:15). Our congregations and teams need to be equipped to meet the moment in the culture, so that they are ready to lead people to Jesus, answer their questions about faith, and usher in the move of God that has already begun.

Nobody likes the stress, pain, and pressure of courageous leadership in the moment, but it’s in those moments that your leadership is defined and refined.

Most of us can recount times where we fretted for hours or experienced weeks of stress, attempting to delay or avoid taking responsibility for a moment of leadership that must be done.

It may have been that moment you had to let someone go. Or you were walking into a tension-filled meeting. Perhaps you had to tell someone they would not receive the funding they wanted or you had to close a ministry that wasn’t working. We all know those moments.

When a leader avoids taking responsibility for difficult conversations, he or she loses influence. If they do it often enough, over time, they will forfeit a measure of their leadership.

Those sleepless nights can be replaced with one tough moment. It’s not easy, but it needs to be done.

We avoid the tough moment for natural and normal reasons. Fears and insecurities are in the mix. We love people. We don’t want to hurt or disappoint anyone. But in the big picture, we are not serving the person well if we don’t have the honest and tough conversation.

Most churches are one tough call away from a breakthrough. That always involves at least one difficult decision and conversation.

It’s also true that making that tough call and having a tough conversation can be the door for a personal breakthrough for the leader him or herself.

3 Guidelines to Prepare for the Tough Conversation

1. Learn the power of one sentence.

When we’re anxious during a challenging conversation, we tend to over-talk. We talk all around the core of the real issue, and we end up not being direct enough to accomplish the purpose of the moment. 

In the vast majority of those tough moments, the heart of the entire situation is best delivered in one sentence.

You may need a lengthy conversation to process that sentence after you say it, but it’s delivered up front in those few but important words. If you talk for a long time before saying what needs to be heard and maybe get to the bottom line at the end, or miss it altogether, the desired result is lost. We typically do this out of love and kindness, but it usually just confuses the person.

Best practice:  

Know exactly what you want to say in one sentence. Write it down. Practice saying it if you need to. Don’t beat around the bush, flower it up and unintentionally dodge the bullet. Clarity is essential. Say it kindly, but just say it.

Never deliver a difficult message fueled by emotion. Preparation, not emotion, is what will strengthen your courage and help you realize positive and productive results.

2. Understand the secret behind the moment.

It’s not really a secret, but we don’t talk about this very often. When you try to power up to get through the tough moments on your own, you will typically overdo it and therefore not realize the outcome you hoped for.  

The “secret” is in the preparation and involves how you engage God.

When you invite God into the process of a difficult conversation, you gain a quiet confidence that translates to spiritual strength in the moment.

• Stillness before God.
As leaders, we’re on the go. We often have little time, and so we process fast. If we are not still before God long enough to gain his mind and heart on the issue at hand, it’s not going to go well.

Taking that invaluable time to be quiet before God, and seeking his voice is essential to this process.

Sometimes I’ll just sit in my favorite place of prayer with a great cup of tea, quiet before God. I have 3×5 cards that I write notes on as I pray. (Old school, I know.) It’s not like an audible voice, but the stillness before God results in peace and confidence that is core to preparation.

• Conviction is the non-negotiable foundation.
Stillness before God is required to gain the conviction that you are doing the right thing. Wise counsel from trusted insiders is always helpful, but if you are the leader, and you are delivering the message, you need personal conviction.

This doesn’t guarantee you’ll never make a mistake; great leaders still make mistakes. Perfect outcomes are not part of the equation in any of these moments. 

The intent is to know you are doing the right thing, according to what you believe God is saying to you.

When you have conviction and resolve in your heart and mind, you’re ready. Now you can deliver the sentence and have the conversation without angst.

3. Measure your outcome by inner peace, not outer perfection.

As I mentioned, the outcomes are never guaranteed. The other person or group can choose their response. But when you enter into the tough moment with inner peace, the potential for great results increases exponentially.

When you enter in unsure, you will not likely gain the results you pray for.

When you are clear, and at peace with God, you have done your best and need to leave the outcomes to him.

Experience may be gained slowly because you don’t practice this on a daily basis. But the companion to tough conversations are honest conversations, and they can happen often and will help you become better at the tough ones.  

The longer I lead, the more I understand that along with prayer the core of leadership is demonstrated in these moments. These are the defining moments that shape the trajectory of your leadership and the ministry of your church.

Read more from Dan Reiland »

This article originally appeared on DanReiland.com and is reposted here by permission.

Her sister once said to her, “You’ve never arrived. You just are. And it’s thrilling to watch you adventure.” It’s an apt description of the seemingly unscripted, improvisational way her life has unfolded. But upon closer observation, there’s an unbroken thread of God’s sovereignty running through and ordering her life that has led to her current roles as a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois; pastor of women at Arbor Road Church in Long Beach; and director of women’s ministries at Hume Lake Christian Camps.

Marshman is the author of several books and Bible studies, including SelfLess (David C Cook) and Meant for Good (Zondervan). Her most recent book, Relaxed (Zondervan), uses Proverbs 3:5–6 to reflect on letting go of spiritual performance to rest in our relationship with the God who gently, unhurriedly loves and guides us.

In the following conversation, Marshman discusses her unorthodox journey to finding her calling as a preacher and teacher, the best advice she ever got from Francis Chan, how going to jail gave her a deeper understanding of God’s grace, and the surprising things he revealed to her when her husband, Randy, died suddenly of a heart attack.

Tell me a little bit about your early faith journey.

I have known Jesus the majority of my life. I am really grateful that I started to understand really early on that church is not just something you attend; it’s something you contribute to. 

I’ve had a few pivotal turns in my Christian walk. One of them, obviously, would be the moment that I said yes to Jesus for the first time. I was in Awana, and I remember them sharing the gospel, and [saying] God loves you and you can respond to his love and be with him forever. And if you want him, he made a way to take anything that would keep you from a relationship with him on the cross. It was the most compelling, best message ever. How could you not respond? 

But they had too many responses, and they didn’t have enough one-on-one volunteers to match up with all the kids. So, they pulled a gal out of the back who was doing snacks, and she happened to be this cool neighbor of mine who didn’t feel prepared to lead someone to Christ, but sat there, heard my story, and she told me hers. I don’t remember much, but I remember God using someone who probably didn’t think that she would be prepared to lead someone. But thanks be to God, it was the Spirit that led me, and all I needed was someone that said, “Let’s pray.” And I did. 

So, I came to faith, [and after that] I kind of got used to serving, just being Christian, and it had become normal instead of reorienting. Then in middle school, I was at a Christian camp and the speaker asked, “Is it your parents’ faith or is it yours?” And I was like, Well, I want it to be mine. So, I remember reorienting my life back, and wanting my whole life to kind of begin to revolve around this thing. 

Then, a few years later, I’m in high school, and sports became pretty important, student council, all the things I was doing on top of following Jesus. And it started pushing out church attendance. My youth pastor caught me on a Sunday morning. “Megan, where have you been?” I’m so nervous [and] full of shame. I’m [sheepishly] like, “Uh … not with you.”  

And his response was, “I’ve paid attention to you, and God made you pretty good with people. What do you think about being our youth group’s initiator of first impressions?” 

He didn’t shame me. He didn’t make me feel guilty. He invited me. And it was so fun. I owned that front door of that youth group room for the next two years, because I had something to contribute, not just something to receive.

Then I go off to Christian college. Didn’t understand the value of finding good, solid Christian friends. Had lots of friends, and found a lot of joy and energy in that. I was the perfect Christian kid up to this point—I mean just on paper, or at least in my parents’ opinion. 

I had some friends that started stealing. They invited me one day, and I was like, “I’m not going to steal. That’s wrong.” But I remember talking to the store workers up front, and my friends stole in the back. On the fourth store, they invited me to come to the back. They pulled off the tags, threw it in my bag, and they’re like, “It’s thrilling. Just walk out.” And I did. And the alarm goes off. What?! 

The whole nine yards: arrested, cop car, put in jail. Imagine the kind of perfect Christian kid who made all the right choices is in the back of a police car going, What just happened? 

I get to the station, and I can’t get ahold of my parents. They were on a bike ride (they didn’t go on a bike ride for 10 years after that). Once we do [get ahold of them], my parents go to the local Vons grocery store and try to get $10,000 cash back to bail me out—they didn’t know what to do; it was nighttime. 

All this to say, they did get to the jail. “OK, your parents are here. You’ve been bailed out.” And I walk out to my mom who has her arms [spread wide]. She could not wait to hug me. I start crying. “Mom, I know I don’t deserve that.” 

And my dad beautifully responds, “My girl, you never did, but you have it.” 

My parents have everyone I’ve ever known write letters to the court on my behalf, like “This is out of character.” “This is not who she is.” And I stood before a judge who said, “I’m going to do something I’ve never done before. You’re obviously guilty of this, and your consequence is going to be speaking publicly to every local high school on decision-making.”

I had no idea I knew how to communicate. I had no idea I knew how to engage an audience. I didn’t know that I had words that could be powerful to help other people.

What age were you at this point?

Eighteen years old. [Years later] at David C Cook in Colorado Springs, Colorado, I was in a room with a bunch of people who wanted me to write my first book. They were trying to brainstorm, and they went around to make introductions of who was in the room. The person to my right was saying, “I worked for so-and-so company, and now I work for bigger so-and-so company, and I’m important.” They didn’t say that directly, but [it was implied]. And it went around the room and everyone proved their credentials to be there. 

I was [praying to] the Lord, This meeting is here for me to write a book, and I don’t feel like I belong. I sat there with the Lord, and I’m like, What should I share about me? What part of my résumé do I share that makes me worthy to even be in the room, let alone be the one they’re here for? 

God brought to mind the jail piece, and I’m like, What? So it gets to be my turn, and my response was, “I went to jail once.” 

The whole room was like [gasp]—the breath was taken out of the room—and I talked about how it was through going to jail that I finally recognized what grace actually is.

And the best part is here I am now, and I’ve been humbled enough to know how little I actually know about grace and its power. I saw it when I was little. I saw it from my youth pastor who invited me to serve the church instead of just ditch it. I now see God’s grace in everything. 

I could continue through all these pivotal moments, but I feel like the through line of all of it is just God’s grace landing me in my mom’s arms, because I didn’t deserve it in the same way that I never deserved my faith. Then to discover my greatest gift being God’s grace and that he gifted me to communicate it. I’ve basically been doing so ever since.

Do you feel like there was anything in your faith that you had to unlearn along the way? 

Instead of “unlearn,” I would say becoming more aware of my pride that convinces me that I already know. So not unlearning grace, but humbling myself to receive it. 

I was on a stage teaching a room full of hundreds of women to bless each other with their words. One looks at the other and says something true. And if it’s from Scripture, it’s kind of cool that God would use his body to actually have him speak these words into their life. I said, “Some of you feel intimidated to have to share something, and look someone in the eyes and encourage them. But I think for a majority of you the harder part is genuinely receiving it, because your pride convinces you that you know it already.” 

It’s God’s love that changes us whether we’re 15, 36, 40, 85 years old. And it’s our pride in our knowledge that limits us from receiving it fully. I know God is love. I’ve known that since I was 5 years old. When I look at myself and I see my sin … here’s the beauty of confessing our sin: Suddenly the knowledge I’ve known of God’s love goes deeper, because it goes into the places I don’t deserve it. Now his love expands. So, my knowledge of God grows and expands with my greater knowledge of self.

What God’s been doing this entire time is wanting us to open up our heart to engage in relationship so that our lifestyle can change. And change only happens in the heart.

Basketball was a big part of your life. You were a star at Westmont. How do you feel that shaped the trajectory of your life and your faith?

Probably a detail you may not even know is I coached college for a few years in there as well, as an assistant coach [at Azusa Pacific University].

It was a big part of my life, which makes me laugh, because it’s hardly much of it anymore, except that I coach my kids. I coach a lot of my sons’ teams—all sorts of sports—and we have three rules: Have fun, work hard and be a good teammate. Obviously, there’s no rule for winning, but winning is fun, so that does fit into rule No. 1. It doesn’t mean we don’t compete. It just means our goals are different. We name who stood out in those three categories at the end of the game. 

Getting higher and higher in sports, or even excelling in it, became a pressure, and the more pressure, the less fun. And sports—but also God, and even life—is meant to be enjoyed. There is always a party popper in a random drawer in my kitchen to make sure that we always are ready to celebrate if someone needs it, or someone has something that’s worth celebrating. 

[If you] can reorient [your] brain away from just win-lose, then you can actually look at life not as win-lose, but as win-learn. The big surprise [is that] makes even losses wins for us, because everything is an opportunity to learn, everything is an opportunity to grow, everything is an opportunity to become a better version of myself—not just for myself, but for the betterment of a team.

The Holy Spirit is more creative than wins and losses. As he promises in Romans 8:28, he’s using everything for good. But the problem is we define it by good in our own standards, which is comfortable and easy. And that’s not God’s goal for us. Rather he redefines it in [verse] 29 when he’s like, “For those whom God foreknew he also predestined—here it is—to be conformed to the image of his Son.” I’ve come to realize everything is an opportunity to learn and, with God, an opportunity to grow more into his likeness.

So, you talked a little bit about having to give speeches after you got out of jail. I was listening to your interview on the Craft & Character podcast, and you talked about your journey toward preaching and teaching. Could you share some of that story?

My first message I ever gave was at Hume Lake [Christian Camps], and it was a seminar. I remember going to my lead pastor and asking him, “How do you write a message for people?” And he says, “Just tell them one thing that God’s told you, and it’s pretty simple.”

I remember in that Craft & Character interview I shared something I very rarely do, which was that Francis Chan was in the audience. I’m sensitive to being a name-dropper, so that’s even my hesitancy now—but I looked up to him. He used to speak at my high school, and he was the perfect blend of funny, passionate and Spirit-led. He was, I think, writing the book Forgotten God at the time. 

I gave a message, he and I grabbed coffee afterward, and he [said], “Do you know how to tell a story that makes people cry?” 

And I was like, “Yes.” I had worked at this summer camp, so I knew how to move people and motivate people. That was my job on the recreation field. But I started using those gifts in cabin-time discussions or leading a Bible study. And then I did this seminar and he’s like, “You’ve got something. It will either be all about you, and you’ll feel the pressure to motivate and try to change [people]. You don’t have that power. You can motivate people, but then that would be the end of it. They’ll be relying upon motivation until it’s not there anymore. Or, you yourself can rely on the Spirit, teach them how to do that, and use your words to do it because God’s gifted you.” 

That moment started me off richly knowing what my job is and what my job isn’t. Unfortunately, having been a speaker now for a couple decades, I forget that from time to time. I still feel the pressure to be clever or to motivate or to say something that they’ll like—and then underneath that is probably that they like me. I get tripped up on that all the time. But I’ll continue to come back—because the Spirit keeps bringing me back—to that original thought [that] what God does is eternal, and partnering with him is far more effective. 

Then I started doing a bunch of high school youth group chapels, then Christian school chapels, then it just kind of kept snowballing to where I’m at today. 

Another big pivotal moment [was] meeting a gal by the name of Michelle Anthony. She’s the one that hired me at David C Cook, and she asked me what my philosophy of ministry is. My response was, “That sounds boring. I just love Jesus, and I’m passionate about Jesus.” 

She goes, “I can tell, and I love that about you, but how do you do it strategically or biblically even?” 

She ended up taking me under her wing, and as we were creating Spirit-led, family-empowered, gospel-centered—God-centered, not people-centered—ministry curriculum, she intentionally discipled me into a way of doing ministry that was grounded in the foundational truths instead of relying upon my passion. She taught me not just how to get them to make a decision about Jesus, but to reorient their lives around him. 

The most pivotal step in the entire thing, for me, is letting God change me. And even the word “let” is intentional. “Be filled with the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18). It’s a passive present imperative. It’s a command to let something happen to me. I need to let God transform my life. And then when he does, then I get to boast about it. 

I feel like that’s all I do in speaking—tell [people] what I have found. And that’s what God asks us to do. [One of] the ways I continue to grow is to rely less on myself and more on the Spirit. And what a great start for me: The first message I ever give, someone tells me just that.

So, we’ve talked about a few of your roles. The path God took you on to become a pastor or a preacher wasn’t linear.

Yeah, random.

Why do you think he shaped you in the way that he did if the goal was to make you a preacher?

I’d probably add in my little résumé being a waitress for seven years. I wish every pastor had to do some sort of waitress/waiter type ministry to learn to serve people, not just at their best, but graciously at their worst. Man!

Nice.

So, I was a waitress for seven years. Then I started teaching and coaching at Azusa Pacific. They couldn’t pay me a lot, but they could give me free education. So, I got my master’s degree. Then I worked for the city of Long Beach helping small businesses. It seemed super random, but here’s where it gets interesting. What you don’t know is in college I wanted to be a videographer, so I knew how to do all the video editing. So then I go to work for the city of Long Beach, and because at the time social media was brand new, they paid me to go get trained by Google—no one had any training in this—to help small businesses and manage people’s social media structure. 

I’m working at a summer camp all the while, giving random messages throughout the year, just trying to say yes to the next thing. No plan, agenda—maybe be a videographer, but we’ll see. And then I end up meeting Michelle Anthony during my final summer camp, and she says, “I want to hire you, but this is so random, the only job we have open right now full-time is a social media manager, and the person to run all of our video teams.” 

And I’m like, “Little do you know, I have a credential for both.” 

I end up working on campus at a church in California [Rockharbor Church in Costa Mesa]. That church finds out that I’ve done a bunch of speeches at Hume Lake, so they ask, “Do you want to run our night services at our church?” 

I’m like, “Sounds great.” 

And I worked with a guy named Steve Carter [teaching pastor of Willow Creek from 2012–2018]. He and I had crossed paths at Hume Lake, but also because he had [been teaching pastor at] Rockharbor.

How did I get the job working for Rockharbor? Because I worked for a publishing house. How did I get the publishing house? Because I had a master’s degree, and I got trained through the city of Long Beach for social media marketing. How did I get [that] job? I got the job because I had to get my master’s degree because Azusa Pacific couldn’t pay me crap. 

It made no sense. But understanding God’s sovereignty, you have to look backward. That is a thrill. When everyone looks linearly [at the timeline of their life], they’re looking forward. But in order for us to build a résumé of faith [in] God’s sovereignty, you have to look backward. And when I looked backward, I saw that everything that felt so random at the time, but was Spirit-led, at just the right time every single thing aligned up. One of the pastors in my church [Arbor Road Church], Alan Kim, said, “We have to read God’s sovereignty like we read Hebrew: backward.”

One of those looking-back things was the loss of your husband to a heart attack four years ago. That’s taught you a lot of lessons, many of them you share very poignantly in your new book. What was one of the lessons that surprised you?

I’ll give you what comes to mind first. And it [goes] back to our self-awareness conversation. So, I know God’s love, and it’s in looking at my mistakes that his love expands. What surprised me most was that exact visual, I believe, is what’s true in joy and trials. I’ve always been optimistic, pretty fun-loving, see the glass half full, very positive, described as joyful my whole life. I think the thing that surprises me is that joy has expanded in the places of trial. I didn’t think that that would be the case. I thought that those two things would grow, maybe in unison, but I didn’t know that joy could be deposited there, this deep-rooted sense of OK-ness. 

[Another thing] that surprised me [was] God gave me a gift of faith that I did not know before. If you would have told me that I had the spiritual gift of faith before Randy went to heaven, I would have been … bored. What? I already have faith. Don’t we all have a spiritual gift of faith? Because, we don’t choose him. We choose him because he first chose us. But it surprises me because this isn’t everybody’s story within grief. He uncovered in me a deep-seated faith and trust in him. That was a gift. A lot of people when trial happens what gets uncovered is that they had faith in a God who is just there to make their life easier and more comfortable and purposeful and successful. When they depart from that faith, my surprising response is, “Good. Because that wasn’t faith in the one, true God.” It will always get uncovered. 

When I think about losing Randy … there are two [things] I’ll tell you that I wrote about in my book. One was a life map where I had to write basically my whole story out using sticky notes, and I had eight hours to do it: all the positive moments in my life, all the negative moments, and then all the learnings I’ve had: rational, irrational, Spirit-led, chapter titles, movements, what God was doing. I went on this big old retreat, and then landed at the very end with this: that success is limited in its ability to grow you. That was a surprise.

Another surprise [is] if you’ve lost people in your life—especially a spouse or a kid—if a part of you is in heaven, then go with it. For me, when I didn’t know how to reconcile that two had become one in marriage, but then one loses one, and I didn’t understand the math of that, I had a very dear friend watch my life and then say, “Oh, Megan, it’s like half of you is in heaven.”

I imagine that moment of my husband standing before God. That “one day we will all stand before God” phrase is more textured than ever, because my husband did, knowing full well on that day that everything will be exposed. Yet we can approach [God] confidently, and that type of loving acceptance that we’ll receive on that day, being fully known, fully loved—which is what everyone I know is longing for, to be really, really, really known. Not just the best of me, but the worst of me.

I thought that Randy just went to heaven, and I’m hopefully one day going to join him. But no. One day I will join him, but in the meantime, I’m bringing it down, because that’s what Jesus taught me to pray. That my life has significance and purpose, and that grief and anger and some of those negative emotions aren’t just something to ignore. It might be one of the ways that God’s moving us to have his heart. God hates death, so if I hate death I’m actually getting on the same page as God. And if I’m angry about the unfairness of this world, I’m getting on the same page as God. 

I wrote that entire book [so] that people would not do anything alone, because Jesus made a way for that to be possible. And all the good stuff is not just reserved for heaven. All the best parts are possible here and now. And it’s wanting to break forth, which gives me a whole lot of purpose and passion for what to do in the meantime between here and that day I stand before God.

I care a whole lot about things that matter and care a whole lot less about things that don’t matter. And it is so freeing. It’s a freedom I’ve never known. And it’s a freedom that I delight in letting others know.

That’s beautiful. You’re one of the teaching pastors at Willow, and Willow [went] through a difficult season of having a platformed leader [Bill Hybels] fall off that platform. So, how do you help other leaders think through building and using influence in the right way?

Totally. We even studied that in school. Why do big leaders fall, and why is it a big surprise? And we kept coming back to full knowledge, full love. The thing that will change [you], whether it’s a leader on a platform or the homeless person who walks in the back, is God’s love.

Leaders can know God’s love and be unbelievably talented in communicating it, but the more we know ourselves and how unworthy we are of it, boom, the more we experience it, the greater it grows. I feel like every leader probably has said this, and I just say good, I’ll echo all the echoes of the echoes, that you can’t give away what you don’t have.

The way that we grow as a Christian is the exact same way we were saved. The way that I first came to faith and the way I turned my life at multiple significant moments I’ve told you about, always was humility. It was walking out of the jail cell toward my mom. It was being a little bit nervous of being exposed by my youth pastor, and then graciously invited in to receive. God’s. grace. It is un. merited. favor. The problem is a lot of our talents have merited favor, which then makes us [feel like we do] not need grace. 

While influence tends to want to go upward and grow to the right, I am fighting to go down to the left, and it takes a lot of intentionality. I’ll be with my spiritual director in a conversation, wrestling through influence, wrestling through the fact that I don’t want to love having influence, and I know myself enough to know that there are parts of me that love it for the wrong reasons. That awareness is a gift, because it’s humbling, and it’s through humility that God has a chance at getting at that part of my heart.

My model for it is going to be Philippians 2: Have the same mindset of Christ who did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, and instead made himself nothing, even to the point of death, even death on a cross.

And then here’s the fun part—and this is probably the visual that I would give for every leader who desires to have influence—Philippians 2 ends with God raising him up. We live in a culture where people are trying to raise you up, and you’re on this thing where you’re trying to get low, humble, humble. Have the same mindset of Christ Jesus: low, low, low, low. And as God raises you up, tell him what he’s done.

God seems to be cleaning his house, scrubbing out the sin and taking out the trash. As 1 Peter 4:17 reminds us, “For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household.”

So how should we, as believers in Jesus, respond to the plethora of unholy headlines that seem to be relentlessly plaguing our social media accounts regarding Christian leaders who have morally crashed and burned? Here are four action steps to take:

1. Get Angry (But Don’t Sin).

“Be angry, yet do not sin” (Eph. 4:26).

There is a time for righteous anger and this is it. When those who preach the Word of God or sing praises for God are secretly engaged in sexual immorality or gross sin of any kind, they blaspheme the God they are declaring.

This should make us angry.

The same kind of anger that caused Jesus to make a whip and use it to drive out hundreds of moneychangers from God’s temple, should be, in a sense, picked up and wielded in righteous anger.

2. Pray for the Victims.

“The Lord is close to the brokenhearted; he rescues those whose spirits are crushed” (Ps. 34:18).

Those who have been abused and misused by Christian leaders must be in a state of crushing pain and constant confusion. We must pray for them, defend them and fight for them.

Whenever I hear about an abuse case I think to myself, “How would I feel if it was my wife, or my daughter or my son who was being abused? How would I feel then?”

Our tempers must flare toward the abusers and our hearts must break for the abused. We must pray for those who have broken hearts and crushed souls to be fully healed.

3. Be Slow to Restore.

“Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled” (1 Tim. 3:1–2).

Those who are in positions of spiritual leadership should be “above reproach.” Sexual immorality and abuse disqualifies them from ministry … many would say permanently.

Here’s what Charles Spurgeon had to say about the restoration of pastors who have fallen:

“I question, gravely question whether a man who has grossly sinned should be very readily restored to the pulpit. As John Angell James remarks, ‘When a preacher of righteousness has stood in the way of sinners, he should never again open his lips in the great congregation until his repentance is as notorious as his sin.’ … Open immorality, in most cases, however deep the repentance, is a fatal sign that ministerial graces were never in the man’s character.”

What a powerful reminder!

4. Look in the Mirror.

“Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted” (Gal. 6:1).

Of course, we, as believers in Jesus, should forgive those who are fellow believers, including Christian celebrities when they sin and are genuinely repentant. We should seek to restore them, not to leadership, but to a vibrant Christian faith.

At the same time, when we hear of leaders falling, we must take a look in the mirror and remind ourselves to live holy lives. We must scour our hearts for impurity and deal with secret sins quickly and completely. We must keep ourselves accountable to others.

Moving ranks right up there with the most stressful life events. And with nearly 60% of moves happening between May and August, chances are you’ve got some new and overwhelmed families in your neighborhood right now.

That makes summer the perfect time to reach out with a warm welcome. Inviting new neighbors to your church doesn’t have to be time-consuming or complicated. With the Outreach New Mover Program, your church can automatically send a friendly, well-designed postcard to every family that moves within your area—all for 79 cents per card with a nonprofit permit. It’s a simple subscription service that is easy to set up, and you can cancel anytime.

Even better: Right now, setup is free, and your first month’s mailing—up to $100—is on us, no strings attached. You can cancel after the first month. Visit NewMoverOutreach.com to learn how many new families have relocated near your church this month.

Kids’ Area Makeovers

First impressions matter, especially when it comes to your children’s ministry. For many visiting families, the look and feel of your kids’ spaces can be a make-or-break moment. If the area feels outdated, messy or uninviting, they may never give your church a second chance. The good news? You don’t need a massive budget or a construction crew to make a big impact.

Outreach has just released three budget-friendly Children’s Area Design Sets that are easy to install and full of color and creativity. Each set includes banners, wall shapes and cutouts made from lightweight Coroplast® (translation: durable, affordable and easy to hang).

Choose from three fun themes:

• Hosanna Savannah (perfect for the little ones)

• Adventure Kids (for elementary-age kids)

• Galactic Explorers (great for older elementary)

You can transform hallways, classrooms or worship areas in a weekend. Check out all the options at Outreach.com/KidMin.

Ready to Grow

It may still feel like summer in your corner of the country, but back-to-school season is just around the corner. That means now is the time to plan your fall outreach—and we’ve got just the thing to help.

When your church signs up for Back to Church Sunday (happening this year on Sept. 21), you’ll get access to a free fall resource kit filled with tools from trusted church growth partners. It’s a great way to jump-start your ministry season with a big push and be part of something bigger—the nation’s largest single-day outreach effort to reach the unchurched and bring people back to God’s house.

It’s completely free to join. Learn more and register at BackToChurch.com.

In his latest book, Platforms to Pillars: Trading the Burden of Performance for the Freedom of God’s Presence (Moody), Sayers encourages us to take the posture of a pillar, providing stability and longevity, creating space for others to flourish, and elevating God over ourselves. He talked with Outreach about how the church can navigate a culture of platforms aching for more pillars.

What are the spiritual implications of digital platforms for the church?

God can definitely use different technologies, but there’s also an ideology behind social platforms, which is that you don’t need institutions. You don’t need to do the normal things people do, which is be in a place over the long haul and through your Christlikeness, through your character, over time, gain some credibility in the community. What the platform society does is offer a shortcut to influence. It equates visibility with influence. But it doesn’t really align with the kingdom of God mentality. Platform has misshaped some of our understanding of leadership, and I think that’s been a really damaging thing in the church. Lots of young leaders and pastors are starting to realize that you can’t shortcut godly, biblical influence amongst the people. 

Many people may think of the late Tim Keller as a celebrity pastor who used his platform. But you say he actually lived his life as a pillar and is an example of a church leader who earned biblical influence. What did he do right? 

I think Keller’s life does speak to us in certain ways. First, he pastored in one place over a long period. He was in New York for decades, and his primary place of ministry was amongst the community of people at Redeemer Church. The second thing is, he didn’t publish until [after many years of ministry]. He waited to be formed. He just thought, If I’m putting stuff [out] there, it’s not going to be mature, which is the complete opposite of the mentality today. He wanted his character, the Christlikeness in him, to be formed first. 

I think God divinely chooses some people to have different levels of influence, and Tim Keller was known all over the world, but that flowed from the years of faithfulness, from walking with Christ, and from an inner world of private victories. He read through the entire Bible every year. Every day, he would spend time with God, spend time with people. And I think that’s a different kind of foundation than the false foundation of a platform that just elevates you for the sake of elevation.

You write, “When leaders are no longer respected within the community and no longer seen as moral pillars, the temptation emerges to create celebrity platforms within the church. Platforms appear to offer a means of regaining visibility at a time when the church feels less visible. If Chris Rojek is correct in his analysis and celebrity is a way in which the religious remains within secular society, then the opposite is also true. Celebrity is how the values of the world enter, operate and remain within the church.” What is to be done about this secularization of the church?

Rojek is a sociologist who’s written a lot about celebrity. He says that in the past people would venerate and worship God, and in certain places people would venerate saints. In a secular society, those forms of worship are put onto celebrity. It’s almost like worship, like they’re religious icons.

As respect begins to disappear in the culture, you create this alternate world where church leaders still get some sort of community credibility through embracing celebrity. There is a bit of a temptation there, where we begin to mirror the world through a sense of insecurity. But you know, very often the churches in Australia have been on the margins. I think there is a form of influence we can learn from that. There’s an upside-down kingdom that speaks to how Jesus operated and to how we should operate in the world. And sometimes that’s not going to be public credibility. In fact, it was public scorn for Jesus, yet so many people followed him and his message.

How can church leaders counsel people on how to live their lives as pillars when platforms seem to affect every facet of our lives?

It’s been really interesting. When I have preached on this, I have noticed quite a reaction in the room, like you’ve named something that people feel as shaping their lives, but no one’s given them the language. Now, you can tear down [a] platform, but I think the real task is actually communicating why we should live the life of a pillar. We stand on the shoulders of giants, in the sense that there are men and women of God who have gone before. 

One thing I’ve often said to congregations is that some of you are here because there’s a great-grandparent who prayed for you. Many of the church buildings we’re in are because of people’s past giving. Many of the Christian institutions are built on what others did. And so we live and flourish in these spaces because of what people have done before us. Imagine if we did that again. I think there’s a really compelling vision in living as pillars in our churches, in our communities amongst our friends and family, and in creating space for others to flourish. We create space for the presence of God to be the center of everything we [are] doing.

What opportunities exist in broader secular society for the church to reestablish pillars now that we are starting to understand the implications of social media and all these things that a decade ago we were celebrating? 

This might be surprising to people in America, but there was this fascinating research that came out in Australia where people lost trust in every institution in Australia, but the one that had gone up a bit, which just shocked me, was the church. What I realized was Australians don’t know heaps about the church, but they’re almost saying, Everything is rubbish. We might give you guys a try. 

I think it’s local as well. I think the conversation’s been national or international, but most people live locally. I think back to who was in my neighborhood when that flood happened? Who was around when I was lonely and my kid needed a youth group? I think it’s actually those spaces that the church inhabits, and so I think as things begin to fall, people are going to look locally for connection. I’m very, very optimistic about the prospects in those places. 

Any parting thoughts?

There’s freedom in releasing yourself from the platform mentality. Say you’re in a rural church. You get online and there’s this amazing production at some huge church that seems to be killing it in a major urban center, and you’re looking at that going, Oh, that’s not me—while someone’s waiting outside of your office with another complaint. When we realize that God places us in certain spaces to be pillars, you don’t have to build a platform. Platform doesn’t equal success. So I think the mental health, spiritual health, and emotional health of a lot of pastors and leaders will dramatically improve when we realize platforms are not equatable to serving God in the way he’s called us.

One disclaimer before we start. If you aren’t a welcoming church then don’t welcome people. What I mean is, if your church currently struggles being a holy huddle, address that first and then look to foster invitation. You don’t want to invite people to an alienating experience.

How to Foster an Invitation Culture at Your Church Before a Holiday Service

1. Leaders Lead.

Before we challenged our congregation to invite someone to Easter we challenged ourselves as a staff. We all wrote down who we were gonna invite. After Easter we  followed up as a staff to see how it went for each of us. The bar for success wasn’t whether or not the person invited showed up. That was the cherry on top. The bar for success was whether or not the staff member made the ask. It is vital to set this culture first with staff, then with volunteers and then with the congregation.

2. Assume Attendance, Ask For Invitation.

People have limited mental calories. Don’t use up your congregation’s focus by asking them to attend your holiday service. If they are already coming to a regular service assume attendance on your big days. Instead focus all your communication efforts by calling them to invite.

3. Normalize It.

As you communicate from the stage during the weeks leading into your holiday service, have each host share who they are gonna invite. This is a helpful practice if this is new to your culture because it normalizes it. It lets the congregation know others are doing it, and it is safe for them to do it as well. One additional piece of coaching: Keep it specific enough to make it tangible but general enough that you aren’t putting anyone on blast. So instead of saying, “I’m inviting my mother-in-law cause she really needs Jesus,” say “I’m inviting a member of my extended family to experience God’s goodness.”

4. Showcase Stories.

If there is only one video you have the bandwidth to produce this year it should be a testimonial video which showcases someone who has found new life in Christ because they were invited to church. Here is an example. This powerful example reinforces the transforming effect of an invite. Even if you can’t produce a video you can still share this type of story live during your hosting. The video or live story should end with something like “My life was transformed because someone invited me. Who’s life is God calling you to help transform?”

5. Provide Resources.

Provide physical and digital invites to the congregation. These resources make it easier to invite a friend or family member to join. I like to hand out a bundle of three physical invites to everyone entering our auditorium and ask them what three people God is calling them to invite to join them.

How to Foster an Invitation Culture at Your Church During a Holiday Service

1. Settle the Guests.

During the holiday service you are gonna have an influx of first time guests. Make sure to acknowledge them in a way that makes them feel comfortable. One way not to do this is by asking them to stand. One way to do this is during the offering let them know their gift this morning is their presence and they are under no obligation to give. Settling guests benefits them and it benefits those who invite them. Those folks are wondering if they made the right decision by asking someone to join them. Answer that question.

2. Thank the Congregation.

After you settle the guests, thank the congregation for inviting them. This quickly lets both parties know that saying yes to the invite and making the invite was a good idea. It also acknowledges the main source (outside the working of the Spirit) of church growth, the congregation’s involvement. 

3. Make the Ask.

The message should apply to the sheep and the goats. Even if it isn’t salvation centric it should include an explanation of salvation and invitation to accept it. If your congregation has gone through the effort to bring someone with them far from Christ, help them move closer to him. If not, a major opportunity will be missed. And your congregation will be hesitant to extend themselves during the next holiday season.

4. Provide a Callback.

Spiritual development is similar to physical development. Going to a gym to sign up for a membership is easy. Going back is hard. That is why gyms offer incentives like reward programs, referral bonuses and merch for hitting milestones. Getting a new guest to attend a holiday service is easy. Getting them to come back is hard. So provide them with a call back through a series that hits a felt need.

How to Foster an Invitation Culture at Your Church After a Holiday Service

1. Connection Follow Up.

A lot of churches do a great job at gathering contact info on a Sunday morning with physical and digital connection cards. But sometimes we drop the ball when it comes to follow up. Make sure to schedule the needed volunteers to do the rewarding work of follow up after a big day. This will help turn first time guests into returning guests.

2. Share the Success.

People want to know they won and they’re on a winning team. So share that success by letting the congregation know how many people attended your holiday services. If you broke records include that. If you have salvation numbers include that. Share on social media during the week and in service the following Sunday. Let people know what God did. If you don’t you not only miss an opportunity to generate excitement but more importantly you rob God of his glory.

​​LifeWay Research found that 82% of people would visit church if a trusted friend invited them. I hope the steps above before, during and and after holiday services helps you foster an invitation culture at your church.

If you want additional help in this area then visit BenStapley.com/coach to schedule a free consultation.

As important as unity is for the people of God today, it is also elusive. Especially as the culture divides around us, it is easier to articulate our differences than our similarities. As my father once remarked when leaving church one Sunday:

“They are on the same page but seem to be reading different books.”

He was relatively new to the faith and trying to understand the different expressions of Christianity. Particularly perplexing were the liberal and conservative Protestants. Both used words like “mission,” “justice,” and even “Jesus,” but it was clear their definitions were not the same. To use his metaphor, they were on the “same page” by agreeing these words were important, but the meanings they had for these words were so far apart that they seemed to be coming from “different books.”

In my role as a professor at a mainline denominational seminary, I encounter this regularly. I often have students who come from different places theologically and can easily talk past each other because of this. Worse yet, they can begin judging each other, labeling each other as unfaithful to Jesus for what they believe.

How do we strive for unity in the body of Christ when we live in a pluralistic context in which there are people who claim the same faith as we do while also disagreeing with how we understand that faith? I have found that there are two parts to answering this question: 1) Develop a common baseline. 2) Learn what questions they are asking.

Develop a Common Baseline

In my introductory evangelism course, I point out that all people who claim to be Christian agree on at least five points:

1. God exists.
2. God is good.
3. God desires to share that goodness with others through Jesus Christ.
4. God communicates that this goodness is available through Jesus Christ.
5. God calls people to participate in the work of communicating this good news.

Christians differ on how to interpret these points, especially because different theologies emphasize different aspects of God’s goodness. Our instinct is often to compare the relative importance of the good gifts God gives us through Jesus. Rather, we can build on these differences by developing a more robust common baseline.

For example, God wants to feed the hungry, comfort the lonely, and offer eternal hope to the dying. God also wants to heal the sick, calm the stressed, and forgive the sinner. This is why Jesus said he came that we might have “life abundantly” (John 10:10). God’s blessing of abundant life overflows into our standard of living (physical needs) and quality of life (mental and relational needs) in this world, as well as offering us the hope of eternal life.

I have never known a conservative Christian to deny that God wants the hungry to be fed. Indeed, I know many conservative churches that are active in feeding ministries. Likewise, I have never known a liberal Christian who did not want to offer eternal hope in the face of death. Indeed, I have heard rousing sermons about the resurrection in churches adorned with rainbow flags.

Here’s the point: On the ground, when it comes to sharing a basic witness for the goodness of God through Jesus Christ, Christians across the theological and political spectra all lay claim to demonstrating the abundant life of God in very similar ways. It is worth remembering this in the midst of our disagreements and challenge ourselves to develop a more robust common baseline for describing God’s all-encompassing gift of salvation.

What Questions Are They Asking?

When we encounter different theological formulations from our own, we tend to evaluate them based on their truth claims. Do we agree with who they say God is, what God is doing in the world, and how God calls us to respond? As we have seen above, we probably can agree with them on more than we thought. Even what we disagree with, we might come to appreciate if we can focus on their questions rather than their statements.

All theological claims come from Christians trying to make sense of the world in light of their faith. They do this by asking questions. Chief among these questions is: How can I believe in the abundant life of Christ given what I am experiencing right now?

Since no two people have the same life experiences, it is not surprising that Christians frame this question differently. For example, while wealthier Western Christians ask about abundant life in terms of eternal security, many African and Latin American Christians ask about what abundant life looks like when they are enduring poverty and deprivation right now. Both questions are entirely reasonable.

Learning about the questions behind other Christians’ claims does two things for us: First, it humbles us. Rather than thinking we have everything worked out theologically, it reminds us that other Christians around the world are doing their best to honor and explain how God is at work in their contexts—just like we are. Their experiences, questions, and insights are just as valid as ours. Second, it helps us expand our own theological wisdom by giving us new questions we can wrestle with that our experiences would not have prompted us to ask. This allows us to develop a larger, more nuanced understanding of who God is and how God is offering abundant life in the world. Even if we end up disagreeing with the claims made by the other Christians, we can still be theologically richer for appreciating the insights their questions raise for us.

In the end, to modify my father’s analogy, we may find that we actually have been reading the same book but while wearing different types of glasses that have only allowed us to see certain parts of what is on the page. Some of those things—like the words we use—are the same. The definitions are not. By seeing things through each other’s glasses, we may still disagree, but we can at least appreciate why we have come to see things differently in good faith, and so work toward greater unity in the body of Christ before a watching world.

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